Curse

-Lotus- · Aug 17, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I'm asking for votes on this. Those fools are trying to spike me.

Well, I got myself banned for you... apparently Rapta Really hates your build, and being wrong.

Its disappointing to see what that site has become... alot of good coding and work went into it's creation, but they left it to idiots...

OrionVolaju · Aug 17, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

The only thing I can think of besides minion bomb is quick mass heal from Dwayna's Sorrow. Not reliable or useful since then you would only have one minion. Just an idea of something that could benefit. Even if that benefit sucks...

Nainoa · Aug 17, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

I'm sure Arenanet will revert this change. I have no idea how it got it into the final stages of the update, but they will fix it eventually.

snaek · Aug 17, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

for those of u wonderin bout flesh golem vs oou...

master of dmg reveals:

flesh golem - 27 dps (41, 27, 25, 34, 27, 39)

vampiric horror (oou) - 28 dps (36, 29, 28, 34, 32, 25)

vampiric horror - 10 dps (10, 10, 20, 11, 6, 15)

bone fiend (oou) - 46 dps (58, 44, 45, 48, 44, 46)

bone fiend - 15 dps (18, 14, 14, 19, 18, 18)

----

interpret as u will...
but flesh golem has same dps as a vampiric horror under oou

bone fiend under oou has more dps than fleshy
but fleshy hits harder (100dmg crits)

if its a 1minion build ur lookin for...

is it really worth takin oou over fleshy in minion-gimmick pvp?

pros:

vampiric horror heals u everytime it hits

bone fiend oou has superior dps

cons:

for a 1minion build...
u only need 1 skill slot for fleshy
u need 2 skill slots for oou+minion

u can re-create a fleshy from its own corpse a million times
if ur oou minion dies...thats it for him

in most cases, if ur minion is bein attacked...
higher hp+armour > +20regen
flesh golem = 600hp, 117al
bone fiend = 440hp, 54al

upkeep costs...
flesh golem = 10en every 100s (if not attacked)
horror = 15en, then 5en every 20s (40en in teh first 100s)
fiend = 25en, then 5en every 20s (50en in teh first 100s)

so yea...
oou is pretty useless imo

unless self-healing capibility or an extra +15dps is important to u,
at a loss for flexibility (extra skill slot, harder to upkeep, costs more energy, etc)

then i think fleshy is still superior in both pve and pvp

-Lotus- · Aug 17, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Its better than Fleshy. maybe not for a MM build, but there are plenty of better things that you can use than a fleshie for that to. Flesh golems sucks, it always has, and without a much-needed buff it always will.

Turbobusa · Aug 17, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

The fiend is also attacking at range and faster, meaning that if the target shadow step out or dies the fiend will not stand doing nothing for 3 seconds + run time to next target like the golem does. But I agree that's pretty much the only advantage of taking that over a golem. Shame.

flyinhigh · Aug 18, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I used to use the old OOU to run the consolute docks mission, with me and another MM necro, OOU could cut down everything in your path quite easily.

now it just sucks.

Lishy · Aug 19, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I have an idea for this skill that actually may be a good:

Elite Spell. All your minions die. Creates 1...3...4 level 3...21...24 Orders of Undeath. For 10..30...35 seconds these minions attack +33% faster and and have +10 health regeneration. These minions die if you have control over 6 or more minions.

Keeps concept of how MM's were supposed to work and the new Order of Undeath

upier · Aug 19, 2008, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I have an idea for this skill that actually may be a good:

Elite Spell. All your minions die. Creates 1...3...4 level 3...21...24 Orders of Undeath. For 10..30...35 seconds these minions attack +33% faster and and have +10 health regeneration. These minions die if you have control over 6 or more minions.

Keeps concept of how MM's were supposed to work and the new Order of Undeath

So now in PvP you raise one minion, kill it and get 3 that are on steroids instead?

Turbobusa · Aug 19, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

As it is worded you don't need any minion for the super fiends to be created.

Lishy · Aug 19, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So now in PvP you raise one minion, kill it and get 3 that are on steroids instead?

Pretty much :P
Although once you think about it, the minions would be more of a body blockers than everything. They target randomly, die after a certain amount of minions are raised, and they don't have the high dps that a flesh golem has, and the bonus they have is temporary.
There are more overpowered options in PvP IMO.

Give order of undeath a high recharge, and watch the overpowered concept not be so scary anymore.
But of course, changes between the PvE and PvP version would be expected.

snaek · Aug 19, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

i'd rather they give us the old oou back

but buff it to 5/1 energy
and/or lower health sac

or make a pve/pvp seperate version of it
pvp unchanged
pve version reading "all but 1...4...6 minions die"

[jagged bones] bomber is still the best pve minion build
which i find very lame to play
(always jus let my hero run it)

i miss my sorrows furnace days when u have 30+ bone fiends

the old oou, was the closest thing to having an efficient bone fiend mm
(except that u couldnt spam it cuz it was too expensive)

Hugh Manatee · Aug 20, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

You know what'd be interesting? If for the PvE half of this skill they made the skill do what it does now(kill all but 1 minion) but then removes the minion limit for the duration of the skill....

Xenomortis · Aug 20, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

How on earth could you raise 10 minions in 20 seconds?
For one thing, that's a huge energy demand.

spun ducky · Aug 21, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I think the best change would be to make it a very simple elite skill with one purpose. It removes the cap on the number of minions you control no more no less. I suppose I still remember the days of solo farming mass stuff with my ever growing army.

Shadowmere · Aug 24, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

wow, I go off on vacation for a month and come back to find my favorite MM skill raped and beaten to a bloody pulp. Honestly what the hell were they snorting when they thought this would be a good idea?

They even had the options to please everybody with this update (pvp/pve split anyone?) but did they do it? NO!

Seriously OoU was about the only truley spectacular elite for Human MMs (AotL only really good for tank-style minions, Fleshie remains subpar to other elites, & Jagged Bones still impossible to use effectively for humans).

ok now that I've vented a bit, I do see some niche uses for it as have been pointed out in this thread already, (i particularly like the idea of supercharging one minion then adding more buffs on top of it) but the fact that we lost of the most useful pve MM skills to gain a rather gimmicky skill that really undermines all MM mentality is so not worth it.

Just going by numbers and tactical strategy this was a terrible nerf for OoU, damage wise one minion doing +32 damage, even attacking 33% faster is still going to be subpar to 10 minions each doing +17 damage per attack. Furthermore one minion even with high regeneration, attack speed, and damage is not going to be able to effectively combat mobs at all.

This goes for both pve & pvp, the new skill undermines the minion's core mentality, that being strength in numbers & victory through attrition. Quite simply one minion no matter how buffed is not going to have the same effect as 10 or even 8 unbuffed minions; in PvE the number advantage is obvious and in PvP it remains similar with the added bonus of seriously impairing enemy targeting around your army. Don't be fooled this was a nerf disguised as a "unique" change.

ok now /endrant

Sniper22 · Aug 26, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

gg

snaek · Aug 26, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

gg

i carry nubs to 10+wins all teh time

ive carried numerous leechers past 5+wins as well

ur build has no dmg, and is not supporting ur team in any way
u were carried by ur teamates....gg

Shadowmere · Aug 27, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

well just to make myself look decently silly after my first rant I've acually forced myself to sit down and find ways to use the new OoU. And despite my earlier naysaying of it I admit I actually warmed up to the super-minion theory (it still makes me cry when I remember what I used to be able to do with the skill though).

I fiddled around with various ways to use it and eventually came up with a "unique" thing I had some fun with in AB. Don't have the exact stats with atm but it went like this.
N/Rt
Death Magic: 15
Soul Reaping:9
Communing: 10
[skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Order of Undeath[/skill][skill]brutal weapon[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Death nova[/skill][skill]taste of death[/skill][Optional][Optional]

tried a few things in the optional slots like [skill]Signet of Binding[/skill], [skill]Vital Weapon[/skill], [skill]Verata's Sacrifice[/skill], [skill]deathly chill[/skill] & [skill]signet of lost souls[/skill]

it was rather fun to play, works a bit like a cross between a full on minion bomber, a standard MM, and a beastmaster ranger. as to it's effectiveness it worked great for me, if you don't like it thats your opinion and i really don't care

i made this to have fun w/ the skill no more no less

Sniper22 · Aug 27, 2008, 10:02 AM // 10:02

lol carries plenty

1) One less target for a monk to heal (also won easy with rit healer and derv healer)
2) 46 dps + death magic skill isn't bad damage - good pressure imo
3) Try using it yourself... noob lol

Kinda doubt this was just random luck. All my fail builds that I create go no where. I got an 11 win streak first try, and 2 10 win streaks shortly after without playing too much.

Brutal weapon looks good though, I'm gonna have to try that one out. Why don't you try some creative way to make it work pve.